Dutch primatologist Frans de Waal speaks with RNS about the Bill Nye and Ken Ham creationism debate, “selfish genes,” and what humanists can learn from religion.

CS: In Our Inner Ape, you describe human morality as being “firmly anchored in the social emotions, with empathy at its core.” Can you say more about the importance of empathy?

FDW: I think the two pillars of human morality are empathy and compassion on the one hand, and reciprocity, justice, and fairness on the other. I don’t think we can even imagine a moral system without those components. That doesn’t mean that they are sufficient—I see empathy and compassion in other animals, and I see reciprocity and even a sense of fairness in other animals. But I would not necessarily say that chimpanzees have morality in the way we do because they don’t try to justify rules, for example. There are certain elements missing.

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I think the two pillars of human morality

are empathy and compassion on the

one hand, and reciprocity, justice,

and fairness on the other.

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Empathy and compassion are very critical components of human morality. If you don’t empathize with others, then you’re not really interested in others. If you’re not interested in others, how could you ever be a moral being? It’s an absolutely essential component.

by Chris Stedman